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ORIGINALLY AIRED 07.03.2015
Note: Designing Yourself is produced as an audio podcast. We encourage you to keep in mind that emotion and emphasis may be lost in the written word. Transcripts may contain errors.
Paul McAleer: Hello. This is Designing Yourself. I’m Paul McAleer.
Whitney Hess: And this is Whitney Hess.
Paul: And I am excited about our topic, very, very excited. And here’s why - because we’re talking about cleanliness. And I am a clean person. I am not a fan of messes. And so, this has been so hard for me to deal with, generally speaking, the idea of things being in a chaotic or messy state. That is something I have really struggled with for my entire life, my entire life.
I’m not sure exactly when the idea of needing to be neat and orderly and clean kind of came into me and who I am. But it’s been there for a very, very long time, probably since I was a kid, honestly. And, you know, there are some parts of it that I really enjoyed, like knowing where stuff was. That was super-important to me, even as a kid, and almost to a point where, you know, I didn’t necessarily want people moving my stuff.
You know, there’s that book, “Who Moved My Cheese?” Well, I trust that at least one point I actually said that as kind of a joke that nobody got because I’m sure somebody did move my cheese at some point, you know. That happens. But, you know, at that time it was such a big part of me, too, when I was younger, just this whole idea of this is the order of stuff. And this is the order of my day. And this is my routine.
And some of that definitely played into how I kept my space neat and orderly. And even to this day my desk at work and my desk at home, those things are very, very neat spaces. Like, I know where I like to have my stuff. And sometimes I geek out about having my computer lined up with my notebook and my phone on my desk next to each other. I silently geek out over that and enjoy that those things are orderly.
Paul: Yeah. It’s just a little thing that I really like, like having things lined up. Now, there are definitely times - like, I’m looking at my desk right now where I’m sitting, and things are kind of a hot mess because I’ve got a bag on the table. I’ve got stuff around. But I also know it’s temporary, like I’m not going to leave it like this for the long term. And that gives me a little comfort.
But generally speaking, when it comes to neatness, I like order. And I like the way things can be organized. So, yes, it makes sense that I do UX and IA work, right? I mean, that totally plays into it as well, and having that kind of order.
So, that all said, the tough part for me has been getting to a place of accepting that messiness. And honestly some of it came with having a kid. And I mean no slam against my son at all, but he’s a kid. And kids will just leave stuff anywhere and everywhere. Like, they don’t care. And they don’t have to care. And I love that, genuinely.
But, the whole idea of, you know, like, well, take off your socks. OK, now your socks, one’s in the living room. One’s in the kitchen. OK, that’s not where they go. They go back in your room, or they go in the hamper, to be precise. Letting him be able to explore and just kind of kick off his socks, whatever, who cares, versus the idea of, no, that’s not where it goes, that for me has been the interesting and fun struggle because there are definitely parts of me that pull and say, no, no, no, this stuff really needs to be neat and it needs to be over here.
And then there’s also the part of me that’s like, well, you know what? Who cares? It’s not a big deal anymore. That’s all been augmented over time. I mean, the other part of it is also living with another person. Like, when my wife and I first moved in with each other when we were dating, there’s the whole idea of like getting used to the way a person is when you live with them and how they have their days and then how they just put stuff away or don’t put stuff away.
And over time that’s been something that my wife and I have talked about quite a bit. And we’ve gotten to a very good place with it, I think, overall. She knows that I tend to be neater than her, and I know she’s a little messier. And that’s totally fine. I mean, we work well together, and that’s what matters most.
But I am definitely a neat person. I like that order. But just getting to a point where I can say, you know, yeah, it’s important to me but it’s not the end-all, be-all, that’s been the change recently for sure. So, I am curious, very curious, if you consider yourself a neat person or not. And I think I know the answer to this. But I’d like you to surprise me maybe.
Whitney: You know, I consider myself a clean person. I consider myself a neat person but not a clean person. Here’s how I differentiate. Wait. Am I neat or clean? No, I’m clean, not neat. See, I don’t even know my own definition. I consider myself clean but not neat.
Paul: Yeah. And maybe we should pause for a second. I mean, I - you know, cleanliness, and that’s kind of what we’re talking about, generally speaking. I mean, to me there is - you know, you touched on it. There is a subtle difference between cleanliness and neatness. And I consider myself to be neat and clean. And the clean part involves - I mean, it involves yourself and taking care of yourself as well as your space. And then the neatness is more about organization. So maybe that’s just a clarifier as we kind of dive in.
Whitney: Yes. Thank you. So, I consider myself to be clean but not neat. I think I’m neat, like, in the 1950s slang word kind of way. Yeah, I’m pretty neat.
Paul: I agree.
Whitney: I do think I’m neat, thank you. But when it comes to belongings and environment and things of that nature, no, for a couple of reasons. One, I work alone, so my office can be whatever it is and no one ever sees it. And I am just fine with that. You know, I have a good deal of papers because I run my own business and I have to keep records. And maybe if I was full-time employed I wouldn’t have this stuff. So, maybe I would be neater. But that’s just an excuse.
I’m on the go a lot. I don’t have a regular schedule. So, I’m not in this space. I’m in my office right now, which is a space that I rent off the boat right on a beautiful beach. And I’m very happy to have it. But I’m not in this space all the time. And I’m not here even on certain days of the week. It’s really irregular. So, I don’t - yeah, I don’t make it a priority to keep it neat.
And, on the boat our mantra is “messy, not dirty.” So, we have a very small living space. I mean, our actual living space is probably less than 200 square feet. And we have very limited storage space in general. Even though we have way more storage space than most 37-foot boats, we still have significantly less storage space than anyone I know who lives in a home, even in a small studio.
So, there are times when things just have to lay out because the effort that is involved in putting it away, either in finding the space or because storage spaces on a boat can be somewhat arduous to get to, believe it or not, it’s like, you know, it’s an effort to put the thing away and take it out. Sometimes it just sits on the nav station, which is the desk. Or sometimes it just sits on the settee, which is the couch.
And, you know, it’s not all that pretty. And it can be clutter. But we are very, very stringent around not being dirty. We clean up dust all the time. We’re always vacuuming/dustbusting. We don’t leave dirty dishes in the sink for very long. The galley, which is the kitchen, is often - you know, we’re always cleaning that. We’re not the type, and I’ve never been the type, to leave, like, pizza crust in the open pizza box on the coffee table when I go to sleep at night, that kind of thing.
Like, that image of, like, the guy who was broken up with - you know, he’s heartbroken and he hasn’t left the house in a week in a movie, that guy, I’ve never lived like that. I care very much that there isn’t hair on the floor and that the mirror is wiped and that kind of thing.
But clutter, yeah, I actually do feel that there’s more clutter in my life than I would like for there to be. And, as you’re describing having your books well-aligned or your notebook and your pen and your everything is well-aligned, the idea of that gives me great pleasure thinking that I could live in that space.
But the reality is that creating that space, the idea of what it would take to actually do that myself, feels very overwhelming. And it doesn’t feel like something that I would enjoy because I imagine that you have to put a lot of energy into it, do you not?
Paul: Yeah, there is a lot of energy that goes into it. And there’s a couple of things there. First is that I just always just assumed that was part and parcel with being me. So, I didn’t really notice the energy and the amount that I was using on organizing things or putting things away or things like that.
And, the other part of it, too, is that, yeah, it can be very overwhelming, the idea of organize your life and you can buy a book that will help you do it, though we’ll reference a book in a couple of moments, I’m sure. That idea is really daunting because it’s like, holy crap, I have too much stuff in my life to organize it all. That seems like it’s overwhelming, and it is overwhelming.
And so, the idea of being completely organized, to me, is one of those fascinating things that everybody including me chases but we never truly attain. And I don’t feel that we’ll get there either because life is messy by definition and default. Now, we can organize stuff, and we can organize our belongings and things as we see fit. We organize websites, for goodness’ sake, right?
But, you know, when it comes down to it there’s always going to be something that comes in and messes it up. So, then it’s a matter of, well, how do we deal with it, you know, that messiness? And what do we do about it?
Now, you know, one of the things that I noticed the other day was that I was making some eggs in the morning for breakfast. And in our new kitchen we have just - it’s a tight kitchen, not tiny-small, probably not like a boat, frankly. But normally what I would do, although maybe it is, although normally what I would do is when I crack open some eggs, crack them open, pop open the trash, throw the shells right in the trash right away. That’s how I do eggs. And now everybody knows, and that’s very exciting information.
Now, the other part of it, though, is that, well now we’ve got a step-can trash can instead of an open one that was in a drawer. So, that’s actually a little more of a pain. And it’s not right where I’m cracking the eggs. And I don’t want to spill egg guts all over the floor, stuff like that. So, that is less convenient for me to do, right? And I’m thinking about the convenience of doing that as well as the messiness of it.
Like, those are things that actually came into my head. I’m like, well, this isn’t going to work anymore. So, now what do I have to do? Well, I stole a thing from Rachael Ray with a garbage bowl. I just got another bowl and put all the stuff in there, the eggshells and stuff, and there you go. And Bob’s your uncle, and I cooked up eggs and everything was fine. And then later I threw it out.
That type of thing, to me, is almost a contained mess. It’s like I know where the mess is going to be until I can deal with it later, which is not necessarily a bad way to be, I suppose. But in those moments, the thing that I noticed is that even when I’m doing something like preparing eggs and making a meal I like to clean as I go along. That’s something I like to do. I think I like to do it. At least I do it, and I’ve never really questioned it much.
But it comes down to, like, you know, when I’m done with this portion of the recipe, go ahead and throw something out, like if I don’t need it anymore, or put the dirty dishes in the sink or whatever. Just get them out of the way so I have more space to concentrate on the next step.
And to me there’s a fine line between just kind of doing that stuff and staying clean and maybe neat and then letting that kind of run that moment and that experience, too. And I think that, to me, is also, you know, something we talked about recently with self-restraint. That’s something there where I feel I need to practice that sometimes and kind of turn down that volume dial, is the way to put it, and just kind of let it go in those moments.
And there are parts of me that fight that big-time because they want everything to be super-neat. But I can get to a point now where I’m just like, well, this isn’t important to me right now. First, I’ve got to make breakfast. Then I can clean up. And it’s not that big a deal.
Whitney: I’m really glad that you brought up food and also the relationship to self-regulation when it comes to cleanliness because when I think about my cleanliness, even though I might not be nearly as clean of a person as you - I know for a fact that I’m not - and as a self-employed person, and any self-employed people who are listening can probably guess what I’m about to say next - sometimes you just don’t have to shower every day.
So there might be ways in which I’m literally not as clean as you. But there is something that is very important to me when it comes to cleanliness, and that is clean food. I don’t talk about this a lot, I guess. I am very, very passionate about eating local, organic, sustainable, seasonal food. And in particular I’m very passionate about eating fresh food.
Because of that, we do not have frozen things in the house. We don’t eat packaged food, processed food. If it comes in a box, we’re probably not eating it. Look, I have - and so I’m glad you brought up the self-regulation piece. And I’ll go into why that means cleanliness to me and what that’s about. But I will, before I delve in, say I love a bag of M&Ms as much as the next person. I love an Oreo cookie. I love a pint of ice cream. I have all those same, you know, food cravings.
And, yes, there are times in which I indulge. And I don’t have - I have certainly not always had the best diet. And I’m a sugar and carbaholic to the extreme. So, I am not turning my nose up to any of that by any means.
But I will say that in the last couple of years we have spent significantly more time making those junk foods than buying them because I can get way more satisfaction and just as much comfort from eating, you know, a box, so to speak - I put heavy quotes around that - a box of chocolate chip cookies that we make at home that we know exactly what the ingredients are that are in them. And they’re just as delicious, and they’re just as indulgent. And they feel just as much of a cheat.
But at least we’re not also, and for me in particular, that I’m not also ingesting chemicals or additives or anything artificial, which is so important to me. And so, I’m going to get on a soapbox for a little bit, and I apologize in advance.
I believe in eating clean. What I mean by that is that I want to put food in my body because that’s what a human body needs, not product. And so, if it is not made in a kitchen, I do not eat it. If it is made in a factory, it’s not food. And therefore it is garbage the moment that you are putting it in your mouth. And it is just going to leave the residue of garbage in your body.
This is not a thin thing. I am far from thin. And there are probably plenty of other ways in which I am not healthy because I do have things with sugar. I do have things with salt and wheat and all of that. But at least it isn’t unpronounceable ingredients that you would never find in a pantry.
So, to give you a little backstory, I grew up in a family - I’m an only child. My parents do not cook. My dad is a great cook, but he never did. They’re entrepreneurs. They worked long hours. And we had takeout every single night of the week. And the pantry was filled with every neon, you know, bagged, boxed thing you could possibly imagine. And McDonald's was a many-time-a-week event. And I ate shit my whole growing up.
I went to college, and then I was on my own, and I ate shit. And I got very sick eventually. And I even as a young 20-something on my own, I was forced to cut out Coke, which I had been drinking, like, by the 32-ounce morning, noon and night from when I was probably 5 years old. I eventually had to go to the hospital because I had such bad acid reflux.
I had to cut out Coke. Then I had to cut out coffee. I have had no caffeine in almost 13 years. I eat chocolate but not a lot. And even with cutting those things out, then I found just that sugar was making me sick. Wheat was making me sick. All of these foods were making me sick. But it actually wasn’t that stuff. It was all the stuff that gets added to it.
So, eating clean became a huge passion of mine totally out of necessity, not because I necessarily, you know, was principled about it. I’ve become that. But it was because I was getting sick. And now when I think of being a clean person, that to me is where my mind goes immediately. So, your mind went to your environment and you are very clean in that way. And I can see. And you’re just like a clean dresser. And you present yourself as being very clean.
I don’t present myself that way. I’m kind of schlubby. I wear wrinkled shirts. I see photos of myself onstage at speaking gigs. I’m like, why was my shirt that wrinkled or rolled up that way? I’m not externally that neat as we’ve been saying. But I’m internally incredibly clean, just in the last couple of years.
And, it’s been a remarkable difference. It’s given me so much energy. And I imagine that whereas I feel like the energy that would go into having a neat workspace is way more than I’m willing to invest, I imagine that you get more energy out of having a neat workspace because you don’t have the mental clutter and the whatchamacallit, the - what’s the thing called? The Japanese art of cleanliness?
Paul: Oh, the - oh, it’s a Marie Kondo book. It is a Marie Kondo book. It’s the magic art of tidying up. Is that right?
Whitney: Yeah, no. But what’s the term called?
Paul: Oh no, I don’t know.
Whitney: Oh my God, it’s right on the top of my tongue.
Paul: No, I don’t know. I’m sorry.
Whitney: People are going to be like - people are thinking of it right now.
Paul: They know it.
Whitney: Feng shui.
Paul: Feng shui, yes.
Whitney: So, I imagine that the energy in your space is more nourishing to you because there aren’t all these blockages that you’ve created that I probably have. But I get mind energy, and I consider myself to be a very energetic person emotionally, mentally - maybe not physically, despite the lack of caffeine in my life, because I am so clean internally. And just like the word “cleanse”, like people that might do cleanses out there, a juice cleanse or a fast, that really gets all the toxins out of the body, there is something to be said for being clean internally and the energy that that can provide you in your life.
Getting off my soapbox now. Thanks for the opportunity.
Paul: Well done. So, that’s a really interesting idea. And there’s - I mean, boy, there’s a lot of stuff there. But I think the things that resonate with me the strongest are this idea of the external versus the internal. And I think for me given where I’ve been and where I am, to a degree, it stands to reason that I would focus on the external stuff because for a long time I judge myself on my possessions and my things in my life.
And I know that in a newsletter recently I kind of half-joked about how when we first moved out to Denver I only had, like, five or six shirts. And that was hard for me to deal with because it was not my collection of shirts, for instance, right? And to be fair, I don’t feel like I have a large mass of shirts like one of those closets you see on TV where it’s an entire room with, you know, a sink and a dresser and everything in the closet. No, I totally don’t have that.
I feel I have a decent number. But, that all said, you know, that pulls into the neatness and cleanliness a little bit, right? You pulled it in, too, like with dressing a certain way and the like, and all these constraints and the external spaces that we have and how much those affect us.
So, I feel that’s pretty important, and that’s where a lot of the focus tends - not tends to be, but that’s where a lot of the focus I’ve looked at has been where it’s a matter of, OK, what can I do to make my space neat? How can I organize this kitchen in order to be efficient and make sense and things like that? What’s going to make sense for us and not just me but my family, too? Like, all of those things are factors that go into it, too.
The stuff that I feel you’re talking about is a counterpart to that but more about the internal, as you say. It is more about, OK, what am I putting into myself? You’re choosing to put things that you deem clean into yourself. So that’s a very interesting notion, right? It’s something I’ve heard as well.
And I don’t know if I fully - I can’t say I fully agree with it because I agree with the principles of it. But I also realize that the reality of my situation is such that I won’t drop everything and go to clean eating tomorrow. That’s something that I don’t feel would be practical for me.
Instead, what I try to do is more of a gentle approach with myself when it comes to food. There are times when I, you know, I mean, you mentioned it, too, like indulge or have some sort of food that’s not optimal. Sure, that totally happens. But for me I just try to be gentle with myself about it and recognize that, OK, in this moment this is the best decision I can make given what I’ve got.
Like, if I am in a situation where I’m super-duper hungry, maybe at a conference, and I didn’t bring anything with me, then I’m up for what they’ve got. And I have to make the best choice for me based on what’s available. And frankly, you know, eating and figuring out what to eat can be a whole topic in and of itself because it’s really damn hard. And there’s a lot of factors as to why.
But it’s hard as a grown-up to figure out how to eat, which is really weird to think about and to say. But I feel that way strongly. That all said, it’s still a matter of choosing what’s going to be best for you in that given situation. And I think that does tie into this idea of cleanliness and neatness and clutter and dirt, right?
I think you and I both agree dirt kind of sucks, and we’re not big on it. We don’t really go for it. And, boy, I can’t stand it, although when I first moved out into my first apartment, my bathroom was kind of a mess. And my wife pointed it out to me, too. Even though I like to be neat and clean it’s like, but have you looked at the corners of your bathroom, because they're really bad. And I really hadn’t. And it was like, oh, oh my gosh, this is bad.
So, that all said, yes, we agree on that. And I think when it comes to the cleanliness stuff, too, that goes with it as well. When it comes to neatness, it’s just a matter of where you want to spend your energy, right, recognizing that we have limited energy. We can only put so much in each place. If we want to we can focus on - we can do both. But one might get a little more of our attention sometimes. The other might get some more other times as well.
And right now I’m still very much in a place where I have been throughout much of my life thinking about the external space. That may flip to the internal a little more. And in fact some of it has in just being more aware of what I’m eating and how my body reacts to food and how that all comes in to me. But I haven’t really associated that directly with cleanliness. So that’s a really intriguing idea. I like that idea a lot. It’s the internal and the external again, and how they kind of work together.
Whitney: And I will say that about practicality you’re very right. You know, it is more harm to tell yourself it has to be this way under all circumstances than it is to just go with the flow and do your best because, you know, that negativity towards yourself and that, I don’t know, dogmatic approach hurts more than it helps.
But I am reminded of a very specific example. Not long after I decided that I was going to really go the distance and change the way I eat, Frederick and I were on a road trip. Just like conference are impossible for people who are choosing to eat a certain way, so are road trips because the food you want is so not available anywhere on the road almost by design, it would seem.
And, we were at the only deli-type place, grab-and-go place we could find. We had a short time to stop. And Frederick grabbed a sandwich and a bag of chips and a drink and whatever very quickly. And I swear it was a half an hour that I was standing there looking in the deli case, looking up at the menu sign, walking the few small aisles of this place, looking at the back of every package.
And I was impossible. I wouldn’t eat any of the fruit that was in the basket because it was conventional fruit. And I’m not going to eat anything with pesticides. I wouldn’t eat any of the chips that they had on the shelves because they all had artificial additives. I wouldn’t eat any of the meats in the deli case because it was all Boar’s Head, and Boar’s Head has additives, and it isn’t sustainable farming. It was like one thing after the next.
And I was wasting so much time that eventually Frederick just got very frustrated with me even though he understood why I was doing this. And in many ways he was changing his eating habits, too. He just left and went in the car. And I gave up. And I left. And then for the next leg of the trip I had nothing to eat. And I was starving. I’m sure that that did not make me a very pleasant road trip companion.
So, because of my dogmatism, if that’s a word, or my dogma, I went hungry. And it hurt me because I’m sure that whenever the next stop was when I finally got something I was willing to eat I probably ate twice as much as I needed to. So, what you’re talking about with practicality and with self-regulation, even when it comes to cleanliness, is critical because to borrow your word being gentle with ourselves is the most important thing there is.
You know, cleanliness is godliness. Fine. That may very well be true that the more pure we are internally and externally makes us more connected to others, to the universe. But we have to be connected to ourselves as well. And that requires being kind.
So, yeah, there’s something that’s so critical about taking all of this as lightly as we can, realizing that it is important for our energy level. It is important for our relationships with others, for our productivity when it comes to, you know, body cleanliness. It’s important for our hygiene. It’s important for our health and our wellness. All of this is true.
But what I’m really taking away from this is that with everything it’s the middle way. And if right now you’re looking at a desk that isn’t as neat as you like to keep it, but that’s because you’re in transition in your life, then so be it. And I think that’s the - it sounds to me like that’s what you’re realizing. So be it. It’ll get neat once it needs to be. For now it is what it is. And if you spend too much energy being negative about it or wishing it were another way, you’re giving away, you know, what you have to use on something else. And there has to be a middle ground in the approach that we take for all of this stuff.
Paul: That’s right. And it’s important for us to recognize that everything is temporary, right? And we’ve talked about that before. Nothing lasts forever. So, there are times when these things will be more important to us and resonate more. We might want to organize our whole lives inside and out. And there are other times where we say, you know what? Screw it. It’s going to be a mess, and I’ll deal with it another time. And both are totally fine as well as that middle way where sometimes we say, yep, these messes are great, or this time I’m not going to have my ideal food situation with me. But it’s cool because other times I do and things are neat over here and the like.
And it is, again, as always it comes down to balance. But it’s important for us to recognize when we’re doing these things really understanding why we’re doing them and what’s motivating us to do them. And I think that’s where it all starts. And then from there you can choose what you want to devote your time to and your energy to just like anything else. And, you know, you don’t have to be a super-neat person if you don’t want to be. It’s not a big deal.
It’s shown as a big, appealing thing, I’ll admit. Like, we have television shows around them and reality shows where people straighten up people’s lives. And there are books and seminars and webinars and people who do this for a living. It’s an actual thing, which is amazing to me and fascinating and kind of geeky/cool. But it’s also something where, hey, if you’re into your stuff and it doesn’t include that, totally fine. There’s no judgment here.
And it’s super-important to just recognize that, like this is not something you absolutely have to do. And I think the most important thing is just living your life. And if it includes wanting to be neat and having a straightened-up place and/or clean eating or anything along those lines, that’s cool. But it’s also dependent upon what works best for you, as always.
Whitney: Yeah. And I would hope that if anything the takeaway from this discussion is if you're feeling low energy, perhaps a place to begin is to look at your environment and your intake, your food intake. What surrounds you and what goes inside of you has a big impact on how good you feel and how productive you are.
And so, yeah, maybe it’s just a matter of keeping that dial at 5. And we can turn it down to super-clean when we’re able to. And sometimes we have to dial it up when it’s not convenient to you or it’s not realistic. But then we dial it back to 5 and we stay somewhere in the middle - I’m saying on a volume of 1 to 10. You know, we just keep it somewhere in the middle and we aim for as good as can be. And I guess that’s all we can expect, right?
Paul: That’s right. So, you don’t have to be neat if you don’t want to be. And if you do want to be, that’s great. That’s kind of the moral of the story. But the last thing -
Whitney: I like it.
Paul: The last thing I’ll say is to mention again - I know we mentioned it earlier, and I know it was on another episode where we were talking about clothes and straightening up. But Marie Kondo’s book, The Magic Art of Tidying Up - I believe that’s what it’s called. I might have gotten my words wrong. I’m so sorry. Excellent book, great book, made me think about stuff in quite a different way. And that was true for my wife as well.
So, when it comes to stuff, that’s the current thing that I find really fascinating and interesting. And it really resonated strongly with me, too.
Whitney: I will second that. I read the book as well. And we have very limited belongings as it is given the very limited space we have. But after reading that book I was able to go through the boat and toss, like, two huge black industrial-sized garbage bags’ worth of stuff, donate one and threw or recycled another, as a result of this very quick read.
So, I strongly recommend it, second your recommendation, for anyone who does - even if you feel like you’re already neat, there’s a lot of great tips in there.
Paul: Yes. It’s a good one. It’s a good one.
Whitney: Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up?
Paul: Yes, that is it - the Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up.
Whitney: Is that it?
Paul: That’s it.
Whitney: I never get it right. I want to put “art” in the title.
Paul: Well, “art” is in the subtitle. That’s why. So, there you go.
Whitney: Oh, there you go.
Paul: Anyway, Whitney, this has been great. Thank you so much for talking with me about another wonderful topic, one of them that was very close to my heart.
Whitney: Thank you so much. And as I embark on a road trip later this week, I hope to be gentler with myself and the food choices that I make. So, thanks for that.
Paul: You bet. Be gentle, OK?
Whitney: OK. Talk to you soon.
Paul: Talk to you soon. Bye.